Ten Heroes Who Didn't Realize They Were Villains
The redemption of Anakin/Vader Skywalker.
I'm fine with the occasional redemption, if the character in question still seems redeemable, but not after they've crossed the line. I don't care how tragic their backstory is, once they abuse their spouse and torture andslaughter people, especially little kids, that's it.
Anakin/Vader redeemed - my foot. I don't care if it's "canon". This sick twist did way too much and was too far gone to just suddenly be a "good guy" again just by saving one person - who he had already severed a hand from before anyway. That so-called "redemption" doesn't elevate *cough* Anakin/Vader, it only makes his biological son Luke less heroic for developing feelings for him just because of that one good act and because they are biologically related.
No amount of sadness/pathos by fans over Anakin/Vader's own past suffering, or unbelievable sudden attachment to Luke Skywalker or vice versa because of "I'm your father!", will erase the commission of power-hungry and sadistic acts in Anakin Darth Vader Skywalker's past - the guy was more than capable of extreme sadism and he did it, over and over and over, and he enjoyed it...
Force-choking was among his favorite means of interrogation, intimidation, and execution. Burning people alive was another. Psychological terror/torment went hand and hand with these. Anakin Vader loved toying with people, making them submit to him in terror. To him, that was considered "respect".
Like the depraved monster Palpatine/Sidious, He thrived on power and domination. Like the odious psycho Reva, he blamed everything and everyone else for his downfall.
I have a friend who is hopelessly stuck on this character. She tried to tell me Vader actually showed some woman "mercy" by rescuing her from some burning hot place where she was confine.
Not true.
Vader only took her out of there after she answered some questions to his satisfaction. He just stood/sat there, asking stupid questions while she writhed in agony.
True mercy would've been getting her out of there and seeing to her injuries immediately, no questions asked!
True nercy was way beyond anything Vader would do. After all, he already choked his wife, killed a man in front of her out of jealousy, slaughtered a bunch of kids, and many other heinous acts.
In 2022, that awful "Obi-Wan Kenobi" series came out. Since it was a poor attempt to unnecessarily fill in some gap between the prequels and the original SW trilogy, Vader was in it.
Many people say he wimped out when he should have killed Reva, (an odious character with an even more odious PR campaign), I think he kept her alive more for his own entertainment than anything else. He loved nothing more than toying with people.
That series was an utter intentional dump on the original trilogy and its beloved characters, no matter how much their shill media says otherwise.
But Anakin Vader still got to be himself and do the following:
1. Vader killed a teenager in front of his father, then choked him out.
2. Vader dragged a woman to death in the street.
3.Vader force-plunged Ben into a fire saying "Now you will suffer" and intentionally burned him, taking his own sweet time to do so. He relished in the sadism of his actions with "Your pain has just begun."
4. Vader choked Reva with his usual annoying:
"You were warned what defeat would bring! I will tolerate your weakness no longer!"
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10 Things We (Still) Kinda Hate About The Phantom Menace
“… The Phantom Menace, the first of a projected prequel trilogy, introduces the 9-year-old Anakin Skywalker… who will grow up to be Vader. … Based on what we see here, it doesn’t seem like such an ineffable mystery that this kid will end up a wheezing, intergalactic power-mongering control freak. A slave boy who already fashions himself a Jedi knight, Anakin is a precocious brat — the kind of kid who, in our own galaxy, might commandeer a playground and run everybody else off the jungle gym.”
— Peter Rainer, New York, May 24, 1999
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10 Most Annoying Star Wars Characters Ever
BY ANDREW DYCE – ON OCT 17, 2015
3 ANAKIN SKYWALKER
The entirety of the blame has to lay on the shoulders of George Lucas, and whatever other writers he turned to for assistance in crafting the character's arc. Going by the original films, Anakin was a proud, incredibly powerful warrior who was turned to the Dark Side by tragedy. In other words, a fairly standard story of a tragic hero's fall from grace (and eventual redemption).
As we now know, that's not what fans got. Instead - and we're still baffled by the decision - Lucas created a character who was so clearly power-hungry, petulant, single-minded, self-centred and fascist-leaning, it's safe to say audiences were shown that Anakin was always going to go bad. In all honesty, nobody has to make a case for Anakin being an annoyance as a child, teenager and adult(?).
Knowing how it forever altered the Star Wars legacy annoys us to our core.
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The following articles are more indepth. They are:
Star Wars: 15 Most Disturbing Acts Committed By Darth Vader
Also found here.
10 Times Darth Vader Didn't Deserve Redemption
Also found here.
Discussion posts:
Anakin Should Not Have Been Redeemed
Graves101
He basically killed Mace Windu, killed dozens of Jedi and younglings, and scorched the Jedi temple of all life, planned to kill Sidious, his "friend", to presumably become an even worse Sith Lord, mercilessly killed the whole Separatist Council, basically killed his wife, the selfish reason he did all the former, tried to kill his master, would slay thousands of Jedi during the campaign of the Purge, killed his own Imperial troops for mundane reasons, killed billions of innocents with the Alderaan incident, betrayed his own apprentice twice, while deceiving him the second time, and so much more. But it's ok to say he is forgiven because he saved his own son? After all that, one little action should not have redeemed Anakin.
He still deserved damnation,
hThere's an article on torture in the Star Wars setting.
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is no small part of it and here are the bits and pieces concerning details of what he did.
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Many members of the order of the Sith utilized torture as a tool; notable examples included Darth Malak, Darth Zannah, Darth Sidious and his apprentice Darth Vader, Vergere, Darth Caedus and his apprentice Tahiri Veila, Darth Krayt, Darth Maladi and Darth Havok. Sith were also known for torturing Jedi with physical agony to try and corrupt captive Jedi to the dark side of the Force.
After Galen Marek became Darth Vader's secret apprentice, his new master spent years personally training Starkiller (the codename Galen now went by), in the ways of the Sith. Starkiller's training was harsh and unforgiving: Vader subjected the boy to rigorous physical tests bordering on torture.
"I've heard whispers about these droids — torture devices invented by twisted Imperial minds. It is said that they can deliver unimaginable pain. Pain so intense that it has never been experienced before — worse than pain from any disease or wound known in the universe."
―Princess Leia Organa, prior to her first encounter with an IT-O Interrogator
Darth Vader tortured Princess Leia Organa with an IT-O
Interrogation droids were used almost exclusively by the Galactic Empire and other tyrannical governments. Many of the sadistic tendencies shared by Imperial Inquisitors and ISB agents were programmed into the droids, and as a result, Imperial torture droids tended to have decidedly sadistic temperaments.
In 0 BBY, while a captive aboard the first Death Star, Princess Leia was tortured by Darth Vader in order to learn the location of the hidden Rebel base. Leia was introduced to an IT-O torture droid, and pain was inflicted through needles, pressure points, fire-knives and electro-shocks. Vader also employed mind-altering drugs and subliminal suggestion in his sessions with the Princess, which made Leia believe that her skin was on fire and her flesh being torn apart, causing the same reaction the real thing would. Leia maintained her resistance, even when she was near dying from the pain. It was only under threat of destroying Leia's homeworld of Alderaan by Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin did Leia relent, and expose the location of the decoy rebel base on Dantooine. Tarkin then obliterated Alderaan anyway, saying that Dantooine was far too remote for an effective demonstration of the Death Star's power.
Darth Vader tortured Thurlow Harris to extract the name of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star.
The droid was also equipped with a vocabulator producing speech; this had seldom been required, as the devices dotting the black sphere spoke for themselves. The droid was still perfectly capable of interrogating a prisoner on its own, speaking in a flat, emotionless monotone. When working with a living, organic assistant, the droid would often keep quiet, allowing the victim to hate and fear the droid, while seeing its living companion as a source of potential mercy.
"One can do some interesting things with a saber, you know. I'll do my best to show you all of them if you'll cooperate by not passing out."
―Darth Vader to Princess Leia, on Mimban
"I didn't think such pain existed. In any universe."
―Princess Leia, after being tortured by Darth Vader on the Death Star
When Princess Leia Organa was forced to fight Darth Vader on Mimban during the Galactic Civil War, Vader toyed with her, repeatedly slashing her skin with his lightsaber, leaving several black scorch marks on her body.
"For every insult, you will scream a dozen times."
―Darth Vader, threatening Han Solo
Darth Vader tortured Han Solo as a means of luring Luke Skywalker.
"Well, Calrissian? Did he survive?"
"Yes, he's alive...and in perfect hibernation."
―Darth Vader and Lando Calrissian, after Han Solo is frozen in carbonite
Carbonite was a metal alloy that was mixed with Tibanna gas, compressed, and flash-frozen, encasing materials for transport in an incredibly strong metal alloy. The freezing of living subjects in carbonite was used as a form of torture; the process was excruciating, and the victim was placed in a form of stasis hibernation, while still experiencing a form of consciousness.
When Princess Leia was tortured by Vader in order to learn the location of the hidden Rebel base, she was injected with mind-altering drugs that made her very susceptible to suggestion. Using his own psychic powers, Vader made her believe that she was in unbearable pain—that her skin was on fire and her flesh being torn apart.
Three years after the Battle of Yavin, Darth Vader again tortured Leia Organa, as well as Han Solo and Chewbacca, on Cloud City. While the torture was not augmented by the Force, Vader knew that their anguish would reach Luke Skywalker through the Force and draw him to Bespin where he could be captured and delivered to Emperor Palpatine. Han was subjected to the scan grid, Chewie to sonic torture and searing lights. Leia, like Han, went through an ordeal with a torture machine, though the details are unknown.
The scan grid was a rack-like device originally designed to analyze metals, gathering data by emitting electrical charges. When Han Solo was tortured by Darth Vader at Bespin, Vader utilized Cloud City scan grid which had been heavily modified with additional tools designed for torture, including microsurgical vibroscalpels, an electroshock assembly, diagnostic scanners and chemical injectors. The scanners would anticipate loss of consciousness while the chemical injectors kept the victim awake, forcing Han to endure every measure of pain without passing out.
According to Director of Imperial Intelligence Ysanne Isard, Vader created the design himself.
Wookiee Chewbacca was subjected to sonic torture and searing lights after being captured by Darth Vader on Bespin in 3 ABY.
Immediately after the capture of Archduke Poggle the Lesser during the Clone Wars, Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker learned that a supply ship carrying Padawans Ahsoka Tano and Barriss Offee had been taken over by brain worm-infested clone troopers. Skywalker attempted to use a mind trick on the Archduke to make him talk, but Poggle informed him that mind tricks wouldn't work on Geonosians. An angry Skywalker told Poggle that he didn't need mind tricks to make him cooperate, and used the Force to choke and levitate Poggle until he finally explained that the brain worms were vulnerable to cold temperatures. Skywalker's fellow Jedi were curious as to how Skywalker had managed to get Poggle to cooperate, but he didn't elaborate.
Around 18 BBY, Skywalker, who had now become the Sith Lord Darth Vader, embarked on a mission to Vohai, in search of new cloning technologies. On Vohai, Vader was attacked by the Emperor's Hand Sa Cuis, who was easily overpowered by the Dark Lord. Vader then tortured Cuis via Force choke, bringing him to the brink of death again and again, in an attempt to force Cuis to reveal who sent him. He was subsequently killed by Darth Vader when he refused to reveal his employer.
When the Rebel mathematician Jorin Sol was betrayed by the Jabiimi resistance fighter Tal Hesz, he was taken into Imperial custody, and tortured personally by Darth Vader. After giving Vader the logarithms used for rendezvous points of the Rebel fleet, he was taken to the Imperial base on Kalist VI, and tortured by the Imperial Intelligence Lieutenant Zuud. When Jorin was finally rescued, he had been brainwashed and given a special mission: "Destroy the Rebellion from the inside."
Dama-torture
Common facial damages of torture, shown in Padawan Dama Montalvo, after an interrogation session with Darth Vader - Burns, cuts, puncture wounds, gouges and bruises were common effects of torture. Eyes glued shut, a black eye or two, split lips, swollen eyes, a broken nose and swollen lips were common facial injuries. More serious effects included disfigurement, broken bones, broken teeth, calcification of the skeleton, an elongated spine (from the rack), permanent brain damage, loss of limbs, and loss of one or more appendages and outer organs, like eyes or ears.
Prior to the Battle of Endor, the Rebel Alliance hero Tay Vanis was captured and tortured by Darth Vader, who left him a mindless shell of a man. After Vanis was found by his fellow Rebels, his droid LE-914 ("Ellie") destroyed both herself and her master, as an act of mercy killing.
After the fall of the Galactic Republic, Jedi Knight Halagad Ventor was captured by the Empire, and tortured by Darth Vader himself. As Vader broke down Ventor's mental shields, Ventor told him everything he wanted to know, and was consumed by the dark side.
Torture has been a part of Star Wars from the very beginning. In the rough draft of Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope, Darth Vader tortures Princess Leia with powerful electroshocks. In the incarnation of the second draft of A New Hope, Leia is replaced by Deak Starkiller, brother of Luke Starkiller, who would become Luke Skywalker in later drafts. When the heroes find him inside his cell, there's a strange yellow glow in his eyes. In the third draft, Vader steps into Leia's cell, the door slams shut and "her screams can barely be heard." The IT-O torture droid didn't appear until the fourth draft.
In the movie, the door to Leia's cell slams shut before the viewer gets see what actually happens to Leia. In the Star Wars radio drama, the interrogation session was vividly depicted in a psychologically intense scene which was so chilling that it prompted some complaints from a concerned listener.
For Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back, director Irvin Kershner originally filmed more shots of Han Solo being tortured, which showed the machine in operation with spikes and needles and electronic things going, and flashes of electricity everywhere. It was cut because the filmmakers were afraid that this would be too intense for children. Some of Han's screaming off-screen was also taken out for the same reason. According to the director, everyone felt that the cut material was too much for a film of this type.
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What gets me about Vader's redemption...
Posted byu/SanthidTatt
What gets me about Vader's redemption...
...is that it's too little, too late. As a kid, watching RotJ I was always joyous that Darth Vader turned back into Anakin Skywalker. When I watch it now, I think of the children he slaughtered in the Temple, and the billions of people on Alderaan, and whatever horrors he committed in the EU (haven't read many EU novels yet), and while I still think he did a good deed murdering the Emperor, I personally don't think it's enough to fully redeem him and I doubt he thinks so either. It's tragic. He wants to be the Chosen One he was always told he would, but he really messed up.
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Vader's "redemption" is a little twisted...
Posted byu/MADNESS0918
Vader's "redemption" is a little twisted...
This came to my mind after seeing those "Vader going on a massacre" comments on Rogue One related posts.
I don't know if Lucas thought that in episode III Anakin/Vader would go on a rampage, kill and betray all his fellow Jedi, but also murder a bunch of kids who are under ten! Oh yeah what about Padmé? She was pregnant, and he was sorta in love with her, and married to her...
Then in episode IV-VI, he maybe becomes torn between light and dark, but still oversees the completion of two planet destroying weapons. Imagine if earth were blown to bits. Seven billion people. And even if it were just Alderaan blown up, we should assume that's a lot of dead people.
I forgot to mention, he also killed his own officers when he got mad, and founded a power-mad, micro-managing, destructive empire.
Then by sacrificing himself to kill the Emperor, he is totally redeemed and made into a shiny ghost and put on the same level as Obi Wan and Yoda. Plus, sensible, admirable Jedi like Qui Gon, Mace Windu, and countless others were marginalized.
Am I the only one who is maybe seeing a problem here?
Am I the only one who thinks that maybe, kids thinking this dude is awesome is maybe a tiny bit creepy?
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Luke shouldn't have tried to redeem Darth Vader
Posted byu/Calfurious
Luke shouldn't have tried to redeem Darth Vader and it was a bad plot point in Return of the Jedi.
Luke trying to redeem Vader was a dumb plot. I'm sorry. I know it's really famous and well loved in Star Wars fanon, but it makes no hamgod damn sense.
When has Vader ever showed literally any doubt or hesitation before ROTJ? Never.
Why is Vader so special that he should be given mercy, but Luke Skywalker cuts through Stormtroopers and mercenaries without a second thought?
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William Bibbiani
Let’s be honest here.
Darth Vader didn’t redeem himself and he didn’t change. He didn’t kill the emperor because of his fascism or to prevent a genocide. He did it because he liked his son a bit more than Palpatine. He did it to preserve his family line. He was being selfish.
2:30 PM - 6 Mar 2019
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
If Vader lived he’d have pulled a Kylo and taken over the Empire himself, and he would’ve tried to recruit Luke again as his Palawan. JUST LIKE HE SAID HE WOULD IN EPISODE V.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
And, of course, just like Kylo did with Rey. His offer of an alliance was not out of decency. It was out of pragmatism. She’s powerful. She can end the resistance. Siding with Rey is a smart play. It’s not an act of redemption.
He got that from Vader.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
One of the things I liked about THE LAST JEDI is it takes the cyclical approach from THE FORCE AWAKENS and then skips ahead. It goes from EMPIRE to JEDI, and then puts the characters in a position without precedent in the series. Now, it’s what would’ve happened if Vader lived.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
And I am very curious what will happen next, now that the future is unwritten. And I’m grateful that after decades of fawning over the past, and losing sight of details like VADER IS A MONSTER AND DID NOT REDEEM HIMSELF, we are finally taking Star Wars in a new direction.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
There might be some good in him, but “he committed genocide and slaughtered children by hand and ushered in an oppressive fascist regime that’s responsible for incalculable suffering and death, but there’s a part of him that’s not so bad” still isn’t much of a defense.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
And I am unconvinced that his soul is saved after just one brief moment of quasi-decency. He saved his son after really thinking hard about it. He slaughtered billions and didn’t give a damn. He says he’s a good guy but maybe he just wanted his son to like him.
William Bibbiani
Mar 6
I honestly think Jedi is less about Vader’s redemption and WAY more about Luke learning from his father’s mistakes and resisting the temptation to go down the same road. That Luke can forgive Vader makes Luke a hero. It doesn’t actually mean Vader is a good person at heart.
Mason Moreno
@RealMasonMoreno
Mar 6
Replying to @WilliamBibbiani
Completely agree. Most prequelists who believe the saga is Anakin’s story more than Luke will disagree. But Luke is the chosen one, he refused the dark side. Vader didn’t. I really wish Rian Johnson was doing Episode IX, because I don’t trust JJ to do anything besides redemption
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Final notes from yours truly:
There was at least one other show using that same "I'm your father" plot-boiler. It involved a repulsive, sadistic, revenge-crazed creep who tried to get out of being arrested by some cop by claiming he was the cop's father.
That creep eventually got redeemed in the eyes of the other characters, and that was when I quit watching that show. There were other things I was really getting tired of, but that was the clincher
In 2022, that awful "Obi-Wan Kenobi" series came out. Since it was a poor attempt to unnecessarily fill in some gap between the prequels and the original SW trilogy, Vader was in it.
Many people say he wimped out when he should have killed Reva, (an odious character with an even more odious PR campaign), I think he kept her alive more for his own entertainment than anything else. He loved nothing more than toying with people.
That series was an utter intentional dump on the original trilogy and its characters, no matter how much their shill media says otherwise.
But Anakin Vader still got to be himself and do the following:
1. Vader killed a teenager in front of his father, then choked him out.
2. Vader dragged a woman to death in the street.
3.Vader force-plunged Ben into a fire saying "Now you will suffer" and intentionally burned him, taking his own sweet time to do so. He relished in the sadism of his actions with "Your pain has just begun."
4. Vader choked Reva with his usual annoying:
"You were warned what defeat would bring! I will tolerate your weakness no longer!"
-Reva also got "redeemed" in the end of that Obi-Wan travesty mini series too, by crying huge crocodile tears.
Villain turning out to be related to the hero arc, and the redemption arc, are tired old tropes that need to be retired.